Dr Louise Newson [00:00:03] Hello, I’m Dr Louise Newson, and welcome to my podcast.   I’m a GP, menopause specialist, and founder of the free balance app. My mission? To break the taboos around women’s health and hormones—shining a light on the issues we’ve been too afraid to talk about. From contraception, sex and testosterone to menopause related addictions and beyond, we’re covering it all. I’ll also be joined by experts and inspiring guests, sharing insights and real stories, as well as answering your questions and tackling the topics that matter to you the most.

Dr Louise Newson [00:00:40] Today on the podcast, I've got Gina Miller who is founder of MoneyShe and SCM Direct. We’ve had the most amazing conversation about how to be kind, how to stand up for yourself, how to look after others, and about the financial crisis actually of being a menopausal woman.

Dr Louise Newson [00:01:02] So, Gina, I'm really excited to have you here, actually, in the podcast studio as well. There's so much I want to talk about, but we're going to have to try and calm it down, because I'm really excited. There's so much that you've done in your life, which is incredible, and you've got so much more that you're doing.

Gina Miller [00:01:20] Oh yes, absolutely, not finished yet!

Dr Louise Newson [00:01:22] No, absolutely, but one of the first things I want to hear about, really, is what keeps you going, what keeps that fire in the belly, what gets you getting up in the morning?  

Gina Miller [00:01:32] It's interesting because I always sort of reflect and think, Is it nature and nurture? And I've come to the conclusion, there’s a bit of both. I was always this really disagreeable three-year-old at school who, you know, never took anything from the teachers, always, why? Why? So, it’s always been part, I think, of my personality, but I also think it's the way I was brought up. I was very fortunate to grow up with the needs of parents who instilled in me. My father was an um an activist lawyer, and which now I think we should celebrate, not denigrate. And he always said that, you know, you never know what's going to happen down the road. So, we help everyone, anywhere, and you speak up for others. And that was something he told us when we were very little children. So, you know, it's just having that. My mother was an eco-warrior, I think, before the term was even invented, and she was just, everything has to be saved and looked after. Everything is precious. She was also a botanist, and so the love of nature and protecting and you know, everything that surrounds us, both physically, mentally, but emotionally and from an environmental point of view, of things that I grew up with, and that's why I think, you know, we underestimate, I think we underestimate motherhood and parenthood, because it's what shapes a human being, for the rest of their lives, and it's so precious, but it's, it was a bit of both. And yeah, I've never been quiet. (laughs) I never intended to be but also, but also, I never want to live with regret I don’t want to look back and regret not having done something or said something and thought, Oh, what if I? So, my view is that what are the chances of things going wrong? It's about 50/50. Yes, no, maybe is the answer. You'll get back. So why not ask? Why not speak up. So, I've got a very positive way, and I don't really care what people think of me. From a very young age, I decided that I was going, you know, other people's opinion was never going to bring me down.  

Dr Louise Newson [00:03:22] That's really good, though, isn't it?  

Gina Miller [00:03:24] But we spend so much time wanting to be liked, and I think that my, two things when it comes to women, I speak to lots of young women and groups, I say, don't ever knock on a door and say sorry as your first word, because that's always the thing we do. We always say sorry, I don’t know what we’re we’re apologising for. Yeah, so don't say sorry is your first word when you walk on into a room or knock on a door and try not to live in regret.  

Dr Louise Newson [00:03:38] Yeah, it's so important, isn't it, because I think so often things are misinterpreted and people try and find fault in people a lot more than finding good things.

Gina Miller [00:03:58] Yeah, well especially if you’re a woman  

Dr Louise Newson [00:04:00] Yeah, it is, isn't it? I think it's really interesting, because I get a bit of backlash for what I do, sometimes, and I think what would it be like if I was a man? What would have happened and like, I don't want to be a man. I'm quite happy being a woman, but I do think, and I sort of also, you know, your work in the past, would it have been more respectful if you were a man?  

Gina Miller [00:04:19] I think I've been told, you know, I started, I'm on my fifth business right now, but I was told, you know, I started in the city in 1996 and so often I've encountered, you know, if only you had a male chief exec, or if you did this, or if you were a man, you would have been more successful. I just thinking, no, yeah, you know, from, you know, applying for loans or venture capital, anything, everywhere you turn, it's, oh, if only you had a man with you. You came into the meeting with a man. And I still get, and women still get that today. 30 years on, and I think it's really disappointing, because it's not just about equality and fairness, it's about missed opportunities for us wider as a society, we all would benefit if we pursued a much more equalist and fair approach to looking after each other and supporting each other.  

Dr Louise Newson [00:05:08] I totally agree. And you know, one of the things that keeps me going is the injustice to women, actually, the women not being listened to, the women not being believed, and the women that don't have a choice. And so, I guess, like you, I am quite outspoken, because I feel like I'm speaking on behalf of others that are suffering,  

Gina Miller [00:05:25] Absolutely, absolutely  

Dr Louise Newson [00:05:27] And that's what I find can be misinterpreted, that people think it's because I've got my own agenda. My agenda is to help people.  

Gina Miller [00:05:34] It's incredible over the years when people said, So, what do you get out of this? And It's that there's sort of disbelief that, well, nothing. Yeah, I get asked to, you know, I've brought in text into EU directives, it's completely changed the way saving and investing fees are disclosed, and everyone says, so what do you get out of it? I've got nothing out of it. And then who paid for it? Well, I use, I'm fortunate enough to be successful in my business life, and I use my money to give back to the society that's enabled my success. And I can't think of anything greater to do with it. But it’s always so, What? What? You're not getting anything. And there's a suspicion around that, how could you possibly be doing this because you think it's right.

Dr Louise Newson [00:06:14] Yeah, but rather than saying, isn't that wonderful that you're giving back something  

Gina Miller [00:06:17] Yeah, it’s something, an interesting cultural dilemma here in the UK, because actually, when I've worked in Australia or Europe or South America, when my first daughter was born, I really became a lioness through her, because she was starved of oxygen at birth, and at that time, there was no statements or provision in schools. So, my first fight was actually getting texts in the 1996 Education Act, which meant that all schools had to then provide special needs, and governors had to have that. So that was my first fight because I felt it was so wrong. Why wasn't every single child having that? You got it if you had money, and you could get a specialist and a doctor and you got, but ordinary, you know, every single child deserves, every parent deserves to have that access to support in schools. So unfortunately, things are going backwards. But, you know, that was my first fight, and it was, I remember on the back of that work and that campaigning, I then came across things like, you know, out of date formula being sent to third world countries, or the drinks that were things like, baby Ribena don’t know if you remember had so much sugar in it was rotting our teeth. So, I started the spin off, of my advocacy tends to come from my own experiences and what I know and understand emotionally and intellectually. And so, I started doing and people were like, but why are you doing that?  

Gina Miller [00:07:40] I was like, because I've just come across something that's wrong, it's that simple,  

Dr Louise Newson [00:07:44] Yeah, I totally get it. I mean, I'm a very honest person, like, I've just been brought up never to lie, because you always get find out. It's not worth it.  

Gina Miller [00:07:53] God carrying a lie is exhausting

Dr Louise Newson [00:07:55] Oh, it's terrible. It's so hard. So, I am really honest, but I am also, like, that annoying two-year-old, but why? But why? But why? And having an inquisitive brain is not a bad thing.

Gina Miller [00:08:04] Oh, curiosity is one of the best things in the world.

Dr Louise Newson [00:08:06] But there's a lot of people that don't have any curiosity, and especially in in my profession medicine, lots of people, what they're told, you know, when they qualify, is what they'll continue practicing. They don't have this professional curiosity. So, when you've got someone challenging, asking, but why does this happen? Why is this then it they get very scared, almost, and they find it very awkward with some people are asking questions.  

Gina Miller [00:08:28] I go back to culture and also in education, because in education, we're sort of told that this is the way we put into little boxes. And I think you know there's a lot of changes that need to happen, and I think one of the biggest for me is education. We have an education system that doesn't really promote curiosity and asking questions and not thinking outside of the box, you know. And as we move into the age of everything being available online, actually those skills become even more important. And I think, you know, our entire education system needs to be rethought.

Gina Miller [00:09:00] Because what we've done, what happens to children is we have such curiosity, but then it's educated out of them, when they enter the education system, and that, to me, is a failing. So, we have to encourage curiosity and debate and free speech and all the things that we're talking which was, I think are incredible, because in a world it becomes more chaotic and more um uncertain, you need those skills more than ever. so, I think we're at a we are at a point where we really, really have to think about encouraging those skills, in individuals and in young people.  

Dr Louise Newson [00:09:33] So, the negativity that you've had in the backlash that you've had as in my way of thinking has actually made you stronger and more determined to do more to speak up for those people that  

Gina Miller [00:09:43] Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I think I have a very probably stringent way of thinking. It's not I just the people when I did my court cases, and it was so I could have just got angry um because of the threats to myself my family you know we were looked after by a terrorist squad for two years, you know, my children were, there were threats for them that they going to be taken. It was, it was the most extraordinary. And it's because the system, the status quo and were saying that I was fighting Brexit. They didn't understand that what I was fighting was for our Constitution. Because if any prime minister can put themselves above the law, they can take away our rights with our parliament. And that's such a, so you know, they could decide if I had lost my cases, it would set a precedent, because we don't have a written constitution, that any prime minister could close down Parliament or bypass parliament and bring in anything, conscription for 16-year-olds or abortions being illegal, no workplace having to bring in anything to do with DEI which we might see the political landscapes going no rights for women, yet all of those things a prime minister could just wake up and they would have gotten away with it. So that fundamental keeping a prime minister in check was what I was fighting for in both my cases, but that was never reported that way. So that could have got me very angry. But I just thought, look, I'm going to carry on doing what I'm doing. But I was, I've always got this thing that those who want to shut me up and hate me if I stay quiet, they win. So why would I allow them to win? I'm not going to let their voices trump mine. When I know what I'm doing, is for the protection of others. And with that truth you've spoke about truth, it's that truth what drives me on, and then, but there are days when I go home and cry my eyes out and  

Dr Louise Newson [00:11:29] Oh, so you're human!

Gina Miller [00:11:30] and I hold my children, I just think, why am I doing this? I look at them and I think, I'm doing it to this for you.

Dr Louise Newson [00:11:37] Yeah, totally

Gina Miller [00:11:39] because I don't want them, you know, I also have this strong sense of stewardship as parents and as they all generate. You know, we should leave the world in a better place. You don't want my children to have to pick up all the pieces because I stayed quiet, or I was too cowardly, or I worried about somebody would say something nasty about me, well fine. You say whatever you want, you don't love me. I don't care about you. Why why would I bother if you decide that I’m a, you know whatever name you want to call me?

Dr Louise Newson: [00:12:05] There were lots of times where I could easily stop doing what I'm doing. But then I look at the children, and they are the ones that say, no, you're helping future generations. You're allowing us to have a choice. We're talking about hormones in a way that we've never thought about them before, never learnt about them at school. It's not just helping us, its helping older people, everyone else, but it is the people that you love are the people that matter.

Gina Miller [00:12:29] Absolutely. I mean, you know, when I fought for exposing a lot of the rip offs that led to the financial crisis, you know, I was taking on the city, the regulator, the FCA, you know, government, the Treasury, and there are lots of days when I wanted to give up my kids were the ones who and my husband were the ones who said, You've got to carry on. But it's interesting because my eldest daughter, who has special needs, um her academic age, if you like traditionally five or six, but she has her EQ, her emotional intelligence is quite extraordinary. And she sees things in such black and white. And quite often she's the one who'll say things to me, which I think oh my gosh, because she's not socialised into responding the way that the rest of us have been conditioned, And so she'll say, she'll say to me when I remember very distinctly that when I when the second case with Boris Johnson, I thought, Why me again? Why do I have to do it? And then the, it came to my realisation that because I'd done the first court case, I actually was the only person who had what's called locus I had the right to bring the second one, so it actually had to be me.

Dr Louise Newson [00:13:28] So, you needed

Gina Miller [00:13:31] and she said, I remember her saying, Mummy, you'd be really unhappy if you didn't do it. And I thought. Because I always tried to explain to them, even when they were very little, I've always tried to explain to them what I'm doing. And I thought, maybe not now, but she's right. She's just, she has this clarity. And it's really interesting, because I'm sort of part Peruvian in South America is that, when I've done some, because I love history, and reading about other cultures and their spiritual journeys and the Incas believe that they had predecessors of the sun, but in today's society, most of them would have had special needs because they saw them as having heightened sight and being closer to God. Isn't that extraordinary?  

Dr Louise Newson [00:14:10] It's very interesting yeah,

Gina Miller [00:14:12] So that idea of not being you know not being clouded and being like the rest of us was celebrated, the neurodiversity and being, you know, different was, was a celebration, it was not a limitation

Dr Louise Newson [00:14:23] Which is a different way of thinking about things, isn't it? And so much I think in culture now is is trying to normalise being the same and for women to be the same  

Gina Miller [00:14:32] And be good!

Dr Louise Newson [00:14:33] and to be good,

Gina Miller [00:14:35] I'm definitely not a good girl!

Dr Louise Newson [00:14:36] No, well, I'm not either. So that's fine, but, but so much for women, especially when we think about hormones, hormonal changes its just stripped. Loads of women come to my clinic and say, this isn't me. I've lost my identity. I don't know who I am anymore, and I really, I worry about women a lot. I worry about the impact on home, but I also worry about their impact in the workplace, and we know that around 10% of women give up their jobs in the workplace, and the commonest symptoms are memory problems, anxiety and fatigue. So, we don't need fans on our desk. We don't need different uniforms, but the perceptions are so wrong that people think, oh, menopause, you can just get through it. Don't worry. They're there. And it lot of people, it comes at the height of their career as well.  

Gina Miller [00:15:22] Funny. So, mine was 10 years ago, and I distinctly remember speaking at a conference on financial services, a massive great big conference, and I walked on stage, and I was always known for wearing trousers, even though most of the women speaking at conferences are told to wear dresses. It's ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. But I always wore my trouser suit, and I walked on stage and being menopausal, and within five minutes, probably less, my entire back was soaking wet, and I could feel the sweat dripping down my back, and I had to give this speech, and then I knew I was going to have to turn around and then walk across the stage to sit down for the panel session. And I could feel I was soaking, and brain fog set in, and I couldn't remember anything I was supposed to say at this very technical and so I, I sort of looked at the room, and it was, you know, 10 years ago. So, we didn't have the screens, and, you know,

Gina Miller [00:16:16] screens, and I didn't have an autocue or anything like that. And I had to ask. So, you think, what do you do in that moment? And I just asked for a glass of water. Paused, and I thought, I can't do the speech I was going to do because I can't remember what I was going to do. And there's a lot of technical people here who will do asking questions in Q&A session. So, I actually really stripped it back and made a very simple speech. And instead of sort of the 45-minute speech, I did 15 minutes, and I said, we've got a Q&A session, a panel session afterwards, ask me any questions, because I knew I'd be more relaxed better then. But I looked across and I could just see there were about in this huge audience of, like, say, 200 there were about 20 women, and I thought none of the men in this audience are going to understand what I'm feeling right now. And so, I have to get through this, and it's that anxiety and that moment of of terror almost, it’s really disabling, and so that's the thing that people don't realise, is that it's not just the medical it's so much you carry, it's exhausting and not being supported. And you know, you know, having a fan or having a day off, or working from none of those things are going to make it better for you. But it's, it's it has to be a cultural change, just not to, not just a legal change. This is the thing I've been saying for menopause for years and decades now, possibly is that, you know, when the when the Quality Act came in, and Health and Safety Act came in, it's all very well. And the now, the work that's done by the ECHR on menopause, I'm saying it has to be a cultural change as well. The law is not enough. Changing the law is not enough. It has to be a cultural change. The same way that I've advocated for cultural change when it's come to talking about domestic violence, because I'm a survivor, coercive behaviour, neurodiversity, because my daughter, you know, I've been campaigning about these things for 30 odd years, and the pace of change is so slow, so slow. And what terrifies me, and I'm using the word terrified, very particularly, is that we are going backwards. The data. These are not perceptions. The data for the last three to four years are showing in all these areas, we are going backwards. And the rights and the advancements women have made, and advocates like myself have made, and you have made, we are actually going backwards. And young women are frightening. Are frightened to speak up as well, yeah, because of the pressure on them, because of the backlash on social media. The toxicity of social media is poisoning society in so many ways, but it is actually poisoning when it comes to people speaking up and advocating for each other. You know, the abuse that I got, that I get online. It's just horrendous.

Gina Miller [00:19:04] Why does somebody think they have the right to say that I should be gang raped, or I should be, you know, killed, or I should, I should go back to the jungle, all these things that people say  

Dr Louise Newson [00:19:15] without knowing you.

Gina Miller [00:19:16] Without knowing me,

Gina Miller [00:19:19] is frightening that they think, because all of these people, all this toxicity, was always there in society. It was on the fringes, and I think what's what social media and what now our political environment is allowing, is it for it to become acceptable and front and centre. And that is a huge shift. You can't say it was never there, division, hatred, all these things have always been there, but as a society, we saw them as being unacceptable. And we've been fighting to make things more acceptable. We're still going we're now going backwards, and that is terrifying. So the advancements made on talking about and normalising menopause and dealing with that, normalising the idea that we do have coercive behaviour as a, as a, you know, an illness in our society, that we have discrimination, that we have hatred, it's normal now, you know, we have to fight back it can't be normalised.

Dr Louise Newson [00:20:10] I totally agree, and I think it's been so much like accepted, especially just thinking about menopause in the workplace. So, oh well, she'll menopause. She wouldn't go for a promotion. And someone recently said to me, oh well, now I'm menopausal. I'm going to change my job. And it's like, well, hang on, there's treatment for menopause. Actually, if you have the right treatment, you'll be feeling so much better. You shouldn't be a second-class citizen because you've you're suffering from something, and neither should you be perceived as one in the workplace either.

Gina Miller [00:20:41] It is unfortunate that the biological clock comes, as you said, at the time when your career is just at that stage. You know your 50s, 60s is when you probably are looking for going for senior management, and a lot of women are actually because the acceptance isn't there and the culture isn't there and the help isn't there, is that it's easier to step away, you know, in my world, you know, it is sad. We're going backwards. The number of women who are top of FTSE or 250 companies, we're going the figures are going backwards. Women who are staying in, in my world, in financial services full time, a lot of them are going part time because the infrastructure isn't there to support us. You know, there's so much support when you go to women entering to work at the lower ladders. But there we're stuck in the middle and  

Dr Louise Newson [00:21:26] Absolutely!

Gina Miller [00:21:28] You know, we need to have middle management and senior management. There isn't enough support at that time. And also, the other thing is, the reality of women leaving, having children later, and having parents who are still alive, is that we've also got women at that same time being sandwich carers, so looking after young children, having caring responsibilities, on top of going through menopause on top of looking after your career it's absolutely exhausting.

Dr Louise Newson [00:21:53] It's really hard. And even thinking about the NHS. We did a survey recently of people who are employed in the NHS so any, any grade, any, not just medics, 37% wanted to reduce their hours but couldn't afford to. So, if you've got that, you won't be going to work and doing the best of your jobs. You will just be sort of going through the motions. But the worst thing is, is that in the UK, only 14% of menopausal women receive evidence-based treatment that we know would improve their brain fog, improve their anxiety, improve their ability to function. So, it just seems so incongruous that we're not even looking after our own, if you like. It's you know, you wouldn't have people going to work with broken legs and not giving them any treatment and adjusting their work so they could, you know, it just is mind boggling, actually, that it's just accepted that women can go on a lower, lower pay, less pension, you know, reduce their hours.  

Gina Miller [00:22:49] It it's real, you know, all these are connected. It's, you know, the medical, the educational and the financial, it's all it's all connected. Which is why, you know, as you know, I've launched this, a specific financial services platform for women called MoneyShe, and I launched that in November, even though, I mean, we were scheduled to launch in November, and then I got diagnosed with cancer in in September. But I was, even though I was then starting chemo in October, I was determined that I was still going to do the launch. So, we launched in November. Because actually, one of the problems that women have is going through menopause and having to give up work or going part time being diagnosed with cancer. We know, you know, 80 odd percent of women diagnosed with breast cancer in their 50, over 50, you know, at a time when you need finances. women already have a pension gap, have a gender pay gap. You know, without money, there's so little you can do and then at that time you can be out of treatment. You can be receiving treatment for up to two years. So, then you've got that financial burden of maybe more childcare and more care for parents are having respite care in a care home. And, you know, I am absolutely passionate about the fact that financial security and freedom for women is so underserved. You know, in my industry, in financial services, you know, the big institutions thought, oh, well, we've got a female initiative. We brought out a pink brochure. Or I was told by a wealth manager the other day with a very big brand, oh, Gina, you'll be really proud. We now have a light lunch option on our menu. And I was thinking, Oh, great. Just for women. And then I went to the launch of, again, another fund for women as a women need different financial products. They don't actually they just need to be educated and have more confidence and access to them. You know, the whole stocks and shares, the whole world of wealth is those benefits are dominated by men. We need women to have access to those benefits as well. And I went to this launch, and it was actually going really well, until they then came to this point where they said, and anybody who becomes a client will have a free consultation with our colourist. And I thought, What? I didn't know if it was a hair colour or a clothing colourist. I wasn't quite sure what the colourist was, and they went on yes, it’s to help you with your wardrobe. And I thought, that’s so belittling that you think that that's what women want coming to talk about, how they become financially secure and empowered not to find out about their colour in their wardrobe. It's quite shocking. You just think in 19, you know, 2024, this was last year, we’re still doing this. We're still, you know, talking to women as though they are children.

Dr Louise Newson [00:25:26] I mean, your research showing the number of women who aren't saving regularly, and, I mean, the stats are high, aren't they?

Gina Miller [00:25:35] Basically, our latest research that we've just done is particularly around ISA’s because I love ISA’s, You know, ISA is a tax free wrapper, but so it depends what you put in it that you know, gets your real return because you want your you know, when you retire, you get older,  your 100 pounds. You go into the supermarket today with 100 pounds you want, in 10, 15, 20 years, for your 100 pounds to be able to be the same, to buy the same basked of goods. But it's not going to because of inflation. You typically, in 20 years, will need those 100 pounds to grow to 130 or 140 pounds, so you need what's called real return. So, you don't save in cash is not going to give you more. Is hard to give you that. And what we found is that over 60 percent of women, so women are saving more, but they're saving cash, cash, ISA’s and in cash, and that's not going to give them the real returns they need. And only about 14% are saving in stocks and shares ISA. So, we need to increase that. But actually 41% of women, this is women who are earning more than £40,000 pounds a year, can't afford to save at all because of their responsibilities.  That is shocking.

Gina Miller [00:26:40] Isn't it absolutely shocking, when you think that women live longer, have more complicated, special medical needs, but also the high percentage of women who living in pension poverty. It's growing, and to me, that is just a tragedy. You've worked hard all your life, you put up with all these things, and then you can't afford to turn on your heating, you can't afford to buy food, you can't afford to live in what we think is normal, everyday comforts. That's why, you know, putting away money now, instead of encouraging women to become financially literate and financially confident, is so important. And again, you know, eventually at MoneyShe we want to start an initiative in universities and schools as well, because education ,and this is not just for women. I do believe that all young people, and especially when they go to university in that first year, should learn about APR, about mortgages, about loans. You know, we don't teach about money, and yet, it's the basis of so much, without money, you don't really have freedom of choice. And the other thing about women being able to save, and it's not just for the bad stuff or for for the negative things, it's also because so many women want to start their own business or go part time because of their responsibilities, because of menopause, they may want to start their own small business. So having that freedom, you know, being able to put away money so that you can, in your 50s, say, or 60s, think, well, actually, what I want to do is maybe support a charity or start a business or travel. It's just that freedom of choice that’s so important.  

Dr Louise Newson [00:28:07] You’re absolutely right, and it's a freedom that’s so important and and you know, as a doctor, I can talk about anything. We could talk about sex, which is fine, but people actually are more reserved talking about money than they are about sex, aren't they?  

Gina Miller [00:28:18] Yeah, some of the statistics we discovered were really shocking. We found out that results showed that only 17% of couples have serious conversations about money. 17% that's extraordinary, yeah. And the other thing was a divorce gap, because unfortunately, you know, divorce is a reality, and for a lot of women end up living in single households for a number of reasons, and the gap, the divorce gap, is that a man after divorce tends to be 33% better off than a woman, because, again, women are not taught about how to ask for things properly and how to really demand that they get an equal share and a fair share, not just equal but a fair share post-divorce. So, there's so many things, that we need educating on.

Dr Louise Newson [00:29:02] That’s so important, isn't it? And again, thinking back about hormones, because that's all I think about. We know the divorce rate increases during menopause. We know that abuse increases in menopause. We know that it's so much harder for women because they've lost their jobs. They've lost so many women I see in my clinic have lost their jobs; they've lost their partner. They have no idea what, how they're going to function and financially as well, it affects us so much more.  

Gina Miller [00:29:30] Yeah, as I said, I'm a survivor of domestic violence, and you know, in 85% of coercive behaviour or domestic violence cases there is economic abuse, because it's one of the easiest ways to control women, predominantly women are victims. So, I'm really battling that we really, you know, banks and institutions insurance companies all have to be better at protecting their female clients and actually seeing the signs of when abuse is happening. But it's also the fact that we are not, we’re not educating women enough to understand their rights, so, you know, understanding our rights is so important. We've got to because the reality, and these are not taboos that we talk about. And people say to me sometimes, oh, Gina, you're just, you know, listening to you is so depressing. And I know it's not about being depressed; it's about empowerment. You've got, you know, you've got to know what's coming, be prepared for what's coming around the corner,  

Dr Louise Newson [00:30:24] So so important. I'm sitting here thinking, goodness, there's so much I need to think about finances in general. Because as doctors, it's terrible, you know, we’re the worst.

Gina Miller [00:30:31] Oh yes, I did a whole project with doctors, And I was quite surprised I have to say that nurses and doctors and again, that, you know, the lack of engagement, but it's because you're busy. And that's one of the things. You know, technology has got his good, his ill, and it's but it's also enables efficiency and accessibility so with the MoneyShe platform, what we've done is we've built tools, and, you know, we've got, sort of people worry about their risk. What products should they buy, So, we've got, like, a matchmaking tool for risk, and so you can go in there and it's just simple. It's that accessibility and making things and technology also can lower costs. And that's one of the things that industry does not like. It's protecting its high fees. And I'm going, actually, you're milking people. If you're getting a return, it's their money, then they should get the lion's share of it. Why are you taking all these that's not how much it costs, and so exposing the um you know, I would say quite often to people, how do you think we got Canary Wharf and all those nice, shiny, big, big buildings. Just think about those fees have paid for that.  

Dr Louise Newson [00:30:34] Yeah, it's very true. So, before I end, I can't not talk about your breast cancer diagnosis, just quickly, you are so positive, and you've come in here, you're having a pause from your chemotherapy. You've got major surgery coming up. But you tell me how much you've researched everything. You've got the most fantastic, mainly female medical team, and you've been really involved in every decision making, which makes me feel so pleased actually.

Gina Miller [00:32:00] I was determined to be treated in the NHS because I think we are so fortunate to have them. You know, all the knocking the NHS, and we have a wonderful NHS. There's lots that needs to change and improve, as in any organisation, but I've been really fortunate, and I've actually got a girlfriend who's going through, unfortunately, 10 years younger than me, but going through a similar diagnosis to myself, with breast cancer. And her team are majority male, and she's having a very different experience from me, my team are predominantly female and it's not just the medical support, but it's the emotional empathy I’m getting that's quite different from her experience. But I want to be very vocal about my cancer. I mean, I've got a quite a rare breast cancer, a genetic mutation. But again, you know, there are millions of women around the country all looking for a lump, and there are so there are other signs. And for me, it was, I self-diagnosed. It was changes in in my nipple and also in my skin, so you know we need to look, to look out for any nipple changes, any, what I call orange peel skin, It's not just the lumps, because it's quite hard to look for a lump. So, you know, women have got to be much more aware, self-aware, but also the finances, because you can be out of you know, you need to think about what will happen. As I said, you know, 80 odd percent of women who get breast cancer over the age of 50. So, you know, you've got to have the financial cushion there as well to be at work and to go through that. Because I think as we go through austerity, we are definitely going through austerity again, 2.0 it's coming, or it's here already, is that they will be cut back on drugs, even though NICE might approve a drug that, if you can't get it on the NHS, you may have to pay for it. So, you know, something like gene therapy, for example, or immunotherapy. You know, it could be 100,000 if you if you can't get in the NHS, and so you have to be prepared that the public purse cannot pay going forward for everything, be it retirement, be it your health, be it your mental or physical health, be it for your children. So, you know, having a financial cushion is so important, and so I'm talking about my cancer because it came from nowhere, and I was expecting it. But it is what it is. It's a reality, and I have to fight for that. I want women to get screened. I want them to talk about it more. I want people to understand that it's a breast cancer strips you of your identity, like menopause, it's how society looks at you when you go through mastectomy, which I will be having a double mastectomy, you know? And I sat there, and I've been in a very dark place thinking, how will my hormones change? What will people think of me? You know, I've got no hair at the moment, and you know, people look at you differently. I didn't wear makeup for six months because I couldn't have any of the toxicity going through my body through chemo, and everyone judges you differently. And I have to say, though, I am sick and tired of people saying You're a strong woman, you'll get through it. You have to treat every single person, give the respect to understand that every journey is different, every experience is different, but also support them. We have to support each other and be kind to each other.  

Gina Miller [00:35:13] And I think sometimes when we're all so busy, we forget to be kind.  

Dr Louise Newson [00:35:16] I think that's so important. What a great place to sort of wrap up, because kindness is everything, and it doesn't cost any money at all. You don't have to save for it. You can do it every day and not judge people. And just because, of course, you're a strong woman, but of course you still need love and compassion and care and you need explanations, and you need to be treated as an individual. It's so important.  

Gina Miller [00:35:38] I would say, I know we are obsessed in education, everybody should be A's and get an A and be A class. And I go, I actually quite like the three C's, which are compassion kind, or I know it's not as compassion, but being collaborative and collegiate with each other, but also just sometimes use your common sense. We try and over complicate everything, common sense is underestimated, you know, and listen to that feeling in your stomach, you know, it's your second brain. Listen to that. Sometimes when things just seem so complex and too, too difficult to make a decision. Sit in a quiet moment. I like quiet moments, sit in the chair in a quiet moment, and just listen to your own voice and that feeling in your stomach because you probably make the right decision.  

Dr Louise Newson [00:36:23] So important. So, before we end, I always ask for three take home tips, and I feel you've given loads of tips already.

Gina Miller [00:36:30] That’s okay! My three take home tips. So, for women, I'd say that one stop saying sorry, the first word out of your mouth shouldn't be sorry and stand up and speak out and be proud of who you are, own your space, because no one has a right, and don't let them. Don't give them that power to diminish you. You know, own you. And the third thing I suppose I'd say is, is, what we've just spoken about is Be kind. It takes some, you know, it doesn't take much to be kind, but that kindness can save someone. I just end on, I saw a chap crying on the bench when I finished my chemo, I could finally go out the house and do things. And it was a beautiful we've had a few beautiful, sunny days. I saw this chap crying on the bench, and I went up to him, and I sat down, and I said, are you okay? And you swore at me, and I said again, are you okay? I said, I'm not leaving here until I know you're okay. And we sat on the bench talking for two hours, and he had been he had just gone through a terrible experience, through mental health illness. He had lost his he was going through a divorce, he was about to lose his home, and he was thinking of suicide, and two hours later, he said, I can't believe you bothered to talk to me. And you know, I just said to him, go and see Sam. And I gave him, I said, I can't help you. I don't know really your situation, but these are some, these are some people you can go and talk to theirs Citizen Advice Bureau. There's these things you can do. This is where you can get help. And I said, all I can give you is practical help, that's all. And he said, no, you actually stopped and spoke to me, and so that's just a very simple thing. Didn't cost me anything. It’s so important. Kindness goes a long way.

Dr Louise Newson [00:38:14] Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. It's been really great. Thanks for coming.  

Gina Miller [00:38:17] It's been my absolute pleasure.

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